Fascinating peek into your awarenesses. I think you are overplaying the 2016 Democratic side claims and revealing a lot of bias here. Somebody gave Facebook a shit ton of money to overwhelm that ecosystem with anti-Hillary propaganda, which was untrue at the time and, after further politically motivated investigations, has remained untrue. Trump is in fact heavily in debt to creditors all over the world, including Russian oligarchs. Russian geopolitical ambitions are well publicized, and their patterns and preferences of election interference (stirring the pot) are widely observed and documented. The US was not the first or last.

None of this means the 2016 election was stolen. It does mean there was foreign interference, though. This was the determination prior, during and after the election.

A few nut cranks might have felt it was stolen, but they are outliers. It was however, interfered with.

In 2020, I don’t know if Russia has been active again, although our Intelligence agencies say they have. But what I can observe myself is that, unlike 2016, one of our political parties decided to proactively try to suppress voting on a scale we’ve never seen, ever. Whatever Russia may or may not have done pales by comparison. Purging voter rolls. Campaigning against mail-in voting. Fucking with mail delivery. Lawsuits to prevent votes from being counted too soon, or too late.

All of this incredibly harmful behavior was Trump and the Republican Party, and not the other way around. I don’t know how much it gained them, but perhaps a few million votes?

The cries of election problems by the Trump supporters were seeded by Trump himself, literally months before the election! There is just absolutely no reasonable comparison here between a few Democratic cranks whining about Trump’s win because of Russian interference, and the vast, intense collusion (and delusion) that just took place over 2020 to win an election by suppressing votes and voters. No comparison at all.

Re: Ukraine, were you asleep or something? You assumed the impeachment was a plot by never-Trumpers. But that blinded you to facts, apparently. The Democratic Party was not on any warpath, had not done anything at all. They had several opportunities to pursue impeachment over emoluments and just Trump’s violations of norms, and his behavior. Removal from office doesn’t require a crime. Just bad behavior is enough. Guess what… they did nothing. Zero.

Their hand was forced by a whistleblower who reported Trump soliciting political interference. You smear Joe Biden and we’ll release the military aid that Congress has authorized. He did that. It’s illegal. So illegal that it couldn’t be ignored. And he solicited initially via Giuliani, then drew actual State department folks into it. Shadow diplomacy, also illegal.

Trump’s impeachment wasn’t a never-Trump plot. That is just your bias showing through. It had nothing to do with 2016, except indirectly. Ukraine is near Russia, and the two countries have their own issues, such as unmarked Russian troops invading eastern Ukraine and funding an insurgency, which is now a frozen conflict (one of their go-to moves). That’s not to say that Fox News and Trump and the Republicans didn’t try to connect the two in the public imagination. They worked very hard to do just that. And apparently they hooked people like you, who were predisposed to think the Democrats were out to get Trump, and assumed this must be a part of that somehow.

Conversation mover. Engineer. GenX. FL-CA-AL-TX-Korea. edblosch@zoho.com

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